How do I know this? Experience. I worked for Elections BC this year. At training our supervisor told us that if a woman presents herself in such a garment as a hijab or burka a female would take her aside to verify her identity. That mature gentleman who answered my question was replaced. I never saw him again, least of all on work day. Co-incidence? Too bad an overly-enthusiastic staff member discarded my papers with his number scribbled on it.
On voting day I verified with the new supervisor about such circumstances presenting themselves. No. We do not even verify gender. If a person has ID and they say who they are we accept that regardless of what appears to be the case. We err on the side of encouraging people to vote.
I think this is imprudent.
Tuesday, June 20, 2017
Thursday, May 25, 2017
Canada is no longer my home
I think there is no future for Canada if we continue this way.
I am looking to expatriate myself from Canada. I do not feel at home here. I do not have a martial bone in my body and prefer to flee than to fight. Political activism is not my thing. And I am old. If I choose to keep my Canadian residency for financial benefit I will stay the minimum months necessary for health care and other benefits.
My grandparents on my father's side were (legal) immigrants from Norway. My best friend in elementary school was Cantonese. My highschool working-class chums were Scots, Italians, Greek-Cypriots, Finns etc. Catholics, atheists, Orthodox Christians, Jews. And I must add, an Ismaili Muslims from East Africa. They adapted and fit in. The Muslims from the Middle East I am not so sure about. No, I am very sure. they might not at all.
Muslim immigration and pro-Islamic policies at various levels of government is not my major reason for wanting to leave however. For decades I have been trying to leave this cold wet place that is too expensive for my low budget. Demographic and political changes are just nails in the coffin.
I noticed the change about ten years ago when I started seeing headscarves in my residential neighbourhood in Coquitlam. There had for decades been Iranians (political refugees post-Islamic revolution) in North Vancouver, but they had always been rather secular and cosmopolitan. Also rich.
I am looking to expatriate myself from Canada. I do not feel at home here. I do not have a martial bone in my body and prefer to flee than to fight. Political activism is not my thing. And I am old. If I choose to keep my Canadian residency for financial benefit I will stay the minimum months necessary for health care and other benefits.
My grandparents on my father's side were (legal) immigrants from Norway. My best friend in elementary school was Cantonese. My highschool working-class chums were Scots, Italians, Greek-Cypriots, Finns etc. Catholics, atheists, Orthodox Christians, Jews. And I must add, an Ismaili Muslims from East Africa. They adapted and fit in. The Muslims from the Middle East I am not so sure about. No, I am very sure. they might not at all.
Muslim immigration and pro-Islamic policies at various levels of government is not my major reason for wanting to leave however. For decades I have been trying to leave this cold wet place that is too expensive for my low budget. Demographic and political changes are just nails in the coffin.
I noticed the change about ten years ago when I started seeing headscarves in my residential neighbourhood in Coquitlam. There had for decades been Iranians (political refugees post-Islamic revolution) in North Vancouver, but they had always been rather secular and cosmopolitan. Also rich.
Malaysian forum threads
Search for posts by hermespan.
Follows are some of my favourites...
Travelling Islamic museum show -
https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=3972559&hl=
Terrorist sympathy car sticker -
https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?s=c7d397faef2cfea072424f5837f5f232&showtopic=3990685&hl=
Posts by HermesPan2 have been deleted. I will publish here the gist of that thread
Follows are some of my favourites...
Travelling Islamic museum show -
https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=3972559&hl=
Terrorist sympathy car sticker -
https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?s=c7d397faef2cfea072424f5837f5f232&showtopic=3990685&hl=
Posts by HermesPan2 have been deleted. I will publish here the gist of that thread
Surrey, BC - women only swim enquiry #2
One of the cities in the greater Vancouver Regional District is Surrrey - a huge area of amalgamated municpalities. It has several swimming pools
On March 25, 2017 I requested women only swim info through the Freedom of Information Act. I received a very small package (10 pages!) today - two months later. That is less than 1/20th of what the City of Coquitlam provided. As with Coquitlam, I was not charged any fee.
What struck me after the minimal info was the fact that where items had been blocked out there was no mention of which section of the act required the censoring. Coquitlam blacked it out, here they whited it out (my printer budget thanks the City of Surrey). And the info was spotty - 2008, 2014 and 2015. I immediately asked for more information. I have 30 days.
Observations...
1. The people of only one religion are mentioned - Muslims. Despite Surrey having perhaps the largest concentration of Sikhs in Canada, they are not being accommodated (or maybe they never asked, nor need to).
.................................................................................
2. Response to an undated 'women only swim' survey from the city of Burnaby, with the following questions and answers (astericks etc in red are mine)...
Q: Does your municipality offer a women's only swim? If yes, does it accommodate Muslim women? *1
A:
- North Surrey Indoor Pool offers a Women and Girls Only swim and gym on Tuesday and Thursday from 9:00 to 10:00 pm. We accommodate Muslim women. * 1
- Sometimes childcare can be an issue so we have allowed women to bring boys under the age of 7.
Q: Did your municipality they (sic) make any specific programming modifications or operational modifications, to run this program? For example, cover windows looking into pool area for privacy of the Muslim women, or staffing the sessions with only female guards etc? *2
A:
- We extended operational hours on Tuesday and Thursday evenings.
- We adjusted the signing hours on Tuesday and Thusrday evenings (decreased to 2 X 2 hour shifts - 8:30 - 10:30 pm) so that only female guards could sign for Women's Only without hugely affecting potential loss of hours for male guards. * 3
- We installed blinds on all windows/doors for privacy. * 4
Q: When does the program operate? Is it offered as a rental? During a public swim time?
A:
- Every Tuesday and Thursday evening from 9:00- 10:00 pm.
- We offer it as a Value drop-in swim ($2.25)
- We also offer Women Only Swim Clinics at a rate of $5 per session. * 5
Q: How long has the program been operating? Aproximmately how many participants attend the sessions?
A:
- The program was already in place when I started working here eight years ago. * 6 I am unsure of how long it ran before that.
- It orginially ran on Monday's and Wednesday's during the day but due to lack of particpiation (only a few women) we changed it to Tuesday and Thursday evenings.
- Since we changed the days, we average about 30 - 60 participants. Tuesdays tend to be busiest as Thursday's the Muslims in our community attend their mosque for worship. * 7
Q: To plan this session did you work with representatives from this community to develop and implement the swim time? * 8 What was your process? * 9
A:
- I believe the programmer who originally started this program worked with Diversity. * 10
Q: Do you have other comments/recommendations?
A:
- We changed the title to "Women and Girls Only Swim" because when it was called "Women Only Swim" some participants complained that children attended.
- Be prepared to deal with a lot of irrate male patrons for adding a women's only time and not a male only time. * 11
*1 - How a swimming pool 'accommodates Muslim women' is not explained at first.
*2 Thus, the blinds and female only guards suggest that this is a Muslim issue not a female one, at least according to Burnaby.
*3 So men guards were forbidden to work?
*4 I must enquire what was the cost.
* 5 In another document, I learn that this means group swimming lessons
* 6 I will enquire who started it, why and when
* 7 Shouldn't that be Friday? Something is not right here.
* 8 Which community, Muslim presumably? Why is it called a 'community' rather than a 'religion'? Perhaps because the social norms of Islam deal with public life.
* 9 And what *was* the process?
* 10 'Diversity' is capitalized. Does this mean that this is an organization?
* 11 'Irrate' suggests irrational and angry. I am enquiring as to what those complaints were and how many.
...................................................................................................
3. The undated 2015 Budget Issue Paper includes bureaucrat bullshitspeak...
"The Newton Wave Pool surrently offers a very successful Women's Only Swim 3 days a week to service the need of the many various cultural communities in the Newton Town Center. * 1 It was originated as a pilot project but has not been funded in our annual budget since its' (sic) inception. The swim is offered outside the regular hours of operation and addditional staff resources are required.
Budget
The budget request of $51,761 was approved for 50% in 2014. The remaining 50% will cover the expenses for offering a Women's Only Swim 3 days a week, Monday/Wednesday nights and Saturday mornings. The minimum amount of staff required - 10 Lifeguard/instructors = 30 hours X 52 weeks x lifeguard/instructor rate. * 2
Objectives
To be able to continue providing a Women's Only Swim 3 days a week at the Newton Wave Pool. To meet the needs of our diverse community by offering different options for safe, fun and respectful recreation opportunities. To re-frame our annual budget report to accurately reflect the program schedule we are currently offering."
The page continues in the request (from the City Fund?) for more money in order to finance the 'Women Only Swim' and adds...
"Offering the Women's Only Swim during regular operating hours is not currently an option." * 3
The 2014 budget page on the Women's Only Swim reads the same word for word. * 4
*1 Why is this a lie? It is not the need of a diverse comunity. It is only the need of one community - Muslim. Not any other religion. Notice that the author used the singular.
*2 Are there not other expenses besides wages for labour? Electricity, security, etc
*3 I believe that this sentence holds a lot of meaning. I suspect it means that it would be illegal to do so according to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I will investigate.
*4 Why the tenuousness of this program? I suspect it has something to do with the City is waiting to be sued. The city doesn't believe the program can continue -- due to a civil challenge.
...................................................
The Surrey Pool 2012 brochure meantions something that is different from Coquitlam...
"No clothing that has been worn outside the pool can go in pool"
This would make the clothing I ocassionally see at the Coquitlam pool prohibited -- men with underwear under their swim trunks and women wearing street pants (rare).
In the section on women's only exercsie classes it notes, "during these lesson times there may be males in the pool area, including swimmers and instructors."
.....................................................
Their reply came the very next day, 'answers' to my questions about the missing information was as follows...
"Subsequent to our response dated May 25, 2017, on that date you requested the following:
* ed. I checked the link on M=July 27 and it was not functioning. Perhaps I was too late. So, I asked them about it by email.
On March 25, 2017 I requested women only swim info through the Freedom of Information Act. I received a very small package (10 pages!) today - two months later. That is less than 1/20th of what the City of Coquitlam provided. As with Coquitlam, I was not charged any fee.
What struck me after the minimal info was the fact that where items had been blocked out there was no mention of which section of the act required the censoring. Coquitlam blacked it out, here they whited it out (my printer budget thanks the City of Surrey). And the info was spotty - 2008, 2014 and 2015. I immediately asked for more information. I have 30 days.
Observations...
1. The people of only one religion are mentioned - Muslims. Despite Surrey having perhaps the largest concentration of Sikhs in Canada, they are not being accommodated (or maybe they never asked, nor need to).
.................................................................................
2. Response to an undated 'women only swim' survey from the city of Burnaby, with the following questions and answers (astericks etc in red are mine)...
Q: Does your municipality offer a women's only swim? If yes, does it accommodate Muslim women? *1
A:
- North Surrey Indoor Pool offers a Women and Girls Only swim and gym on Tuesday and Thursday from 9:00 to 10:00 pm. We accommodate Muslim women. * 1
- Sometimes childcare can be an issue so we have allowed women to bring boys under the age of 7.
Q: Did your municipality they (sic) make any specific programming modifications or operational modifications, to run this program? For example, cover windows looking into pool area for privacy of the Muslim women, or staffing the sessions with only female guards etc? *2
A:
- We extended operational hours on Tuesday and Thursday evenings.
- We adjusted the signing hours on Tuesday and Thusrday evenings (decreased to 2 X 2 hour shifts - 8:30 - 10:30 pm) so that only female guards could sign for Women's Only without hugely affecting potential loss of hours for male guards. * 3
- We installed blinds on all windows/doors for privacy. * 4
Q: When does the program operate? Is it offered as a rental? During a public swim time?
A:
- Every Tuesday and Thursday evening from 9:00- 10:00 pm.
- We offer it as a Value drop-in swim ($2.25)
- We also offer Women Only Swim Clinics at a rate of $5 per session. * 5
Q: How long has the program been operating? Aproximmately how many participants attend the sessions?
A:
- The program was already in place when I started working here eight years ago. * 6 I am unsure of how long it ran before that.
- It orginially ran on Monday's and Wednesday's during the day but due to lack of particpiation (only a few women) we changed it to Tuesday and Thursday evenings.
- Since we changed the days, we average about 30 - 60 participants. Tuesdays tend to be busiest as Thursday's the Muslims in our community attend their mosque for worship. * 7
Q: To plan this session did you work with representatives from this community to develop and implement the swim time? * 8 What was your process? * 9
A:
- I believe the programmer who originally started this program worked with Diversity. * 10
Q: Do you have other comments/recommendations?
A:
- We changed the title to "Women and Girls Only Swim" because when it was called "Women Only Swim" some participants complained that children attended.
- Be prepared to deal with a lot of irrate male patrons for adding a women's only time and not a male only time. * 11
*1 - How a swimming pool 'accommodates Muslim women' is not explained at first.
*2 Thus, the blinds and female only guards suggest that this is a Muslim issue not a female one, at least according to Burnaby.
*3 So men guards were forbidden to work?
*4 I must enquire what was the cost.
* 5 In another document, I learn that this means group swimming lessons
* 6 I will enquire who started it, why and when
* 7 Shouldn't that be Friday? Something is not right here.
* 8 Which community, Muslim presumably? Why is it called a 'community' rather than a 'religion'? Perhaps because the social norms of Islam deal with public life.
* 9 And what *was* the process?
* 10 'Diversity' is capitalized. Does this mean that this is an organization?
* 11 'Irrate' suggests irrational and angry. I am enquiring as to what those complaints were and how many.
...................................................................................................
3. The undated 2015 Budget Issue Paper includes bureaucrat bullshitspeak...
"The Newton Wave Pool surrently offers a very successful Women's Only Swim 3 days a week to service the need of the many various cultural communities in the Newton Town Center. * 1 It was originated as a pilot project but has not been funded in our annual budget since its' (sic) inception. The swim is offered outside the regular hours of operation and addditional staff resources are required.
Budget
The budget request of $51,761 was approved for 50% in 2014. The remaining 50% will cover the expenses for offering a Women's Only Swim 3 days a week, Monday/Wednesday nights and Saturday mornings. The minimum amount of staff required - 10 Lifeguard/instructors = 30 hours X 52 weeks x lifeguard/instructor rate. * 2
Objectives
To be able to continue providing a Women's Only Swim 3 days a week at the Newton Wave Pool. To meet the needs of our diverse community by offering different options for safe, fun and respectful recreation opportunities. To re-frame our annual budget report to accurately reflect the program schedule we are currently offering."
The page continues in the request (from the City Fund?) for more money in order to finance the 'Women Only Swim' and adds...
"Offering the Women's Only Swim during regular operating hours is not currently an option." * 3
The 2014 budget page on the Women's Only Swim reads the same word for word. * 4
*1 Why is this a lie? It is not the need of a diverse comunity. It is only the need of one community - Muslim. Not any other religion. Notice that the author used the singular.
*2 Are there not other expenses besides wages for labour? Electricity, security, etc
*3 I believe that this sentence holds a lot of meaning. I suspect it means that it would be illegal to do so according to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I will investigate.
*4 Why the tenuousness of this program? I suspect it has something to do with the City is waiting to be sued. The city doesn't believe the program can continue -- due to a civil challenge.
...................................................
The Surrey Pool 2012 brochure meantions something that is different from Coquitlam...
"No clothing that has been worn outside the pool can go in pool"
This would make the clothing I ocassionally see at the Coquitlam pool prohibited -- men with underwear under their swim trunks and women wearing street pants (rare).
In the section on women's only exercsie classes it notes, "during these lesson times there may be males in the pool area, including swimmers and instructors."
.....................................................
Their reply came the very next day, 'answers' to my questions about the missing information was as follows...
"Subsequent to our response dated May 25, 2017, on that date you requested the following:
1 1. Have all deleted sections been due to FOI Section 22 only? Or other sections of the FOI Act? Normally redacted material is replaced with the relevant # (e.g. 22) I see no specific explanation from within the document regarding which exemption applies.
2. The only dates of documents are see are 2008, 2014 and 2015. Were there zero communications or publications on 'women only swims' between 2008 and 2014? Likewise 2015 to 2017, and previous to 2008? Are those records available for me to study?
3. When does Surrey destroy records, going back how many years does the City keep records, digitally or on paper?
4. What are the dates of the writing, distribution and collating of results of the 'women only swim' survey? It shows no year.
5. I received several publications and some records of emails. Were there no other records: emails, phone calls, paper letters, faxes, either internal or external (e.g. with Burnaby or Coquitlam) on the subject of 'women only swims'?
6. Where is the record of any complaints on the 'women only swims' and how the City was to handle them or in fact did?
7. Where is the record of why the 'women only swims' were restarted (or have they been running non-stop since 2008)?
8. Who requested 'women only swims' from within the Surrey community? Or did this program originate without community involvement?
9. Where are the records regarding the communications between those community groups and the City of Surrey. I am not requesting the names of individuals, only organizations - so the privacy exemptions do not apply.
In response, we provide the following information:
1. The barcode section of page 10 of the records is the only redaction to the records disclosed. The information was redacted as the code may be linked to registrants of a program. We enclose a more legible scan of page 10 of the records. [ed. * see my note below]
2. There are no further records in response to the request.
The search conducted involved consultation with staff, relevant staff conducting a search of their workstation and an electronic search of archives.
3. The records retention for Parks, Recreation and Culture programming is six years.
4. The survey on page 4 of the records provided identifies the record was created July 9, 2010.
5. There are no further records related to this program.
6. There are no records of complaints regarding the program.
7. Staff recollection is that the program began in 2002 - 2004 as a pilot program that originated at the North Surrey Recreation Facility and expanded to the Newton Wave Pool.
8. Staff recollection is that the program was originated with the community non-profit group Diversity.
9. There are no further records related to this program.
We enclose Parks, Recreation and Culture Policy documents that appear relevant to the substance of your request.
* ed. I checked the link on M=July 27 and it was not functioning. Perhaps I was too late. So, I asked them about it by email.
Monday, May 22, 2017
If I run as an independent candidate here is my platform
I am not an absolutist. I am willing to listen to experts, inlcuding those of differing opinions. But here are my most important political concerns, in order of priority...
1. Muslim immigration: Immediate moratorium on Muslim immigration. There are of course some exceptions (Ahmaddiyas and Ismailis come to mind) but if you are a male named Mohammed, you cannot 100% prove your past and present, and you are from a known jihadi country - you're not coming in, even as a tourist. Of course most Muslims are decent people, but it's not that small fraction of Buddhists and Baptists we are worried about. Update: I am not so sure whether this would be a prudent policy (as it interferes with freedom of movement). But certainly, close scrutiny of Muslims wishing to enter Canada.
2. Canadian money supply: No more borrowing money from private banks at interest and indebting the nation. Bank of Canada can issue its own money supply
3. Demonopolizing: No more HIBC, Fraser Health and other regional health corporations, ICBC, PGT etc. Either competitive businesses or true government departments. This includes the closing down of CBC State propaganda machine and liquor control boards.
4. Decriminalization or legalization of 'vice': Cannabis - Using, growing, selling. Gambling, prostitution, pornography. More or less everything. Government is not a nanny. But neither should it be profiting from vices such as it is by distributing alcohol (update Oct. 22, 2018 - and now cannabis). Individuals, families and social groups make these decisions rather than the State.
5. Better senior's care: Nursing care at present is a disgrace. Financial incentives for families to keep their elders at home. De-unionization of our quasi-government residential care facilities.
6. Welfare reform: I have no informed opinion on minimum income program. But, who are we fooling saying anyone can survive on $610 per month (update: Oct. 22,2018 - or even $710)? Setting unrealistically low levels encourages dishonesty as enterprising individuals make cash 'under the table'.
7. Isolationist military: Except *maybe* in extreme risk situation (ISIL), no more Canadian troops overseas. Possibly tax credits and other system so private citizens can finance a counter-jihad.
8. Family Allowance increases: for non-Muslim families. Plus other incentives to reverse the Islamization of Canada. This is only one of the many prongs in an assertive campaign to take back Canada for people with Canadian values.
9. Energy: Be a world leader in safe nuclear energy (thorium)
10. Electoral reform: Persons get into power with a minority of the vote. This must change.
11. Final settlement of aboriginal land claims: Let's get this over with. Then no more special considerations versus non-first nations
12. Reciprocal real estate rules: If country X permits our citizens to buy property in their country then Canada reciprocates. If not, we don't.
13. Marketplace medicine: My friends around the world are shocked when they learn how the Canadian system work, or rather doesn't. For while for serious accidents and life-threatening disease such as cancer it is good to be in Canada, for any chronic complaints it takes what seems like forever to see a specialist and get tests. This needs to change.
14. No more foreign aid: Or at least drastically reduce. If private individuals and organizations want to help others who are no risk to Canadians, they can do so directly.
15. Simplification of tax code: Perhaps a flat rate.
Some of my programs are *classic* liberal, a few are socialist. Some are conservative, many are small 'l' libertarian. I can see some sense in the NDP (social democrats) and also the Conservatives and Christian Heritage Party, but I have no patience with the PC 'Liberals'.
My motto is 'let's cut the BS, let's clear the swamp'.
1. Muslim immigration: Immediate moratorium on Muslim immigration. There are of course some exceptions (Ahmaddiyas and Ismailis come to mind) but if you are a male named Mohammed, you cannot 100% prove your past and present, and you are from a known jihadi country - you're not coming in, even as a tourist. Of course most Muslims are decent people, but it's not that small fraction of Buddhists and Baptists we are worried about. Update: I am not so sure whether this would be a prudent policy (as it interferes with freedom of movement). But certainly, close scrutiny of Muslims wishing to enter Canada.
2. Canadian money supply: No more borrowing money from private banks at interest and indebting the nation. Bank of Canada can issue its own money supply
3. Demonopolizing: No more HIBC, Fraser Health and other regional health corporations, ICBC, PGT etc. Either competitive businesses or true government departments. This includes the closing down of CBC State propaganda machine and liquor control boards.
4. Decriminalization or legalization of 'vice': Cannabis - Using, growing, selling. Gambling, prostitution, pornography. More or less everything. Government is not a nanny. But neither should it be profiting from vices such as it is by distributing alcohol (update Oct. 22, 2018 - and now cannabis). Individuals, families and social groups make these decisions rather than the State.
5. Better senior's care: Nursing care at present is a disgrace. Financial incentives for families to keep their elders at home. De-unionization of our quasi-government residential care facilities.
6. Welfare reform: I have no informed opinion on minimum income program. But, who are we fooling saying anyone can survive on $610 per month (update: Oct. 22,2018 - or even $710)? Setting unrealistically low levels encourages dishonesty as enterprising individuals make cash 'under the table'.
7. Isolationist military: Except *maybe* in extreme risk situation (ISIL), no more Canadian troops overseas. Possibly tax credits and other system so private citizens can finance a counter-jihad.
8. Family Allowance increases: for non-Muslim families. Plus other incentives to reverse the Islamization of Canada. This is only one of the many prongs in an assertive campaign to take back Canada for people with Canadian values.
9. Energy: Be a world leader in safe nuclear energy (thorium)
10. Electoral reform: Persons get into power with a minority of the vote. This must change.
11. Final settlement of aboriginal land claims: Let's get this over with. Then no more special considerations versus non-first nations
12. Reciprocal real estate rules: If country X permits our citizens to buy property in their country then Canada reciprocates. If not, we don't.
13. Marketplace medicine: My friends around the world are shocked when they learn how the Canadian system work, or rather doesn't. For while for serious accidents and life-threatening disease such as cancer it is good to be in Canada, for any chronic complaints it takes what seems like forever to see a specialist and get tests. This needs to change.
14. No more foreign aid: Or at least drastically reduce. If private individuals and organizations want to help others who are no risk to Canadians, they can do so directly.
15. Simplification of tax code: Perhaps a flat rate.
Some of my programs are *classic* liberal, a few are socialist. Some are conservative, many are small 'l' libertarian. I can see some sense in the NDP (social democrats) and also the Conservatives and Christian Heritage Party, but I have no patience with the PC 'Liberals'.
My motto is 'let's cut the BS, let's clear the swamp'.
Friday, April 21, 2017
10 Islamic blogs on swimming
I
have changed original bolding which may be different in web
source. Bolding here
is mine. I have edited out the Islamic statements of praise to God
and Mohammed. Sorry for some inconsistencies of text. Despite
numerous times changing font size and colour, this blog service is
not updating those changes. It may have something to do with the
websites copied and pasted which were a bit troublesome. And I do not have a copy of MS Word, only Open Office, which has its own issues.
Men and unisex swimming
https://www.al-islam.org/hijab-muslim-womens-dress-islamic-or-cultural-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/common-questions-about-hijab-and
Lead!
2. EShayk
A girl, apparently from Turkish controlled Northern Cyprus, writes...
"In summer I go swimming almost every day in rivers, lakes or the ocean. I usually wear long (knee-length) swim trunks, but recently bought a basketball jersey to wear in the water as well. Is this necessary? If not in public or if no women are present, is this still necessary?"
Imam Senad Agic (originally from Bosnia) from the American Islamic Center in Chicago replies...
So, again, body shame is not just a female thing. It is both genders in Islam.
3. Islamweb.net
[the next six posts]
12/24/14
1.A woman should cover her Aurah; from navel to knee in front of Muslim women and whole body in front of non-Muslim women save her face and hands till wrists and what could be unveiled at work.
As for the Hadith your referred to, it is that the Prophet said:"If a woman puts off her clothes in a place other than her husband's house, she tears the veil between her and Allah" [hadith sources I omit here]. This Hadith means any place where a woman is not sure of being covered from men.
Therefore, many scholars have permitted women to enter the Sauna peculiar to women if they put the above conditions into effect."
12/18/03
6-9-05
"Q: I am worried about Muslim girls sport activities at schools. Especially swimming, which is obligation to know. For example, there are so many Muslim women unable to swim, because they do not know how and cause of this not able to save they drowning children in the water. So - I have a question now, does Islam tolerate this. In the schools are these swimming lectures obliged to follow, but most of the schools have mixed lectures. Most of the school are getting tired of excuses due to the religion and then the big demonstration exposes, that all Muslim girls shall change the schools, if they want to apply they religion... but the problem is, in Europe, where we as Muslims are more respected commonly, as in Arab countries, have no Islamic schools.
1. Al-Islam.org
Men and unisex swimming
"Q: Is
it permissible for a Muslim man to go to unisex swimming
pools and other similar places where people go about half-naked?
A: It
is not permissible for a Muslim man to go to unisex swimming
pools and
other similar places if it entails a haram act.
Based on obligatory precaution, according to Ayatullah Sistani, he
must refrain from going to such places even if it does not entail
a haram act."
So,
based on this fatwa (pronouncement of an
interpretation of Islamic law) after women only swims we should
expect to see Muslim MEN only swims too. I give it ten years in
Canada if Trudeau gets his way. This could be presented as 'men's
modest swimwear only' events. Nothing Muslim about it of course...
https://www.al-islam.org/hijab-muslim-womens-dress-islamic-or-cultural-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/common-questions-about-hijab-and
Lead!
Imam
Ali Foundation [Shia?]
A
Code of Practice For Muslims in the West
by
Ayatullah Sayyid Ali Hussaini Sistani
I
have downloaded this 148-page document and will study it in depth at
another time. It shows how Muslims are less likely to integrate than
members of other religions, and in my assessment even antagonistic.
https://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-sistani
...........................................................................................
2. EShayk
A girl, apparently from Turkish controlled Northern Cyprus, writes...
"In summer I go swimming almost every day in rivers, lakes or the ocean. I usually wear long (knee-length) swim trunks, but recently bought a basketball jersey to wear in the water as well. Is this necessary? If not in public or if no women are present, is this still necessary?"
Imam Senad Agic (originally from Bosnia) from the American Islamic Center in Chicago replies...
"The
Messenger of Allah (saws) said: Whoever believes in Allah and the
Last Day must not enter the public bath without a lower
garment, and whoever believes in Allah and the last Day must not let
his wife go to the public bath.(En-Nasa’i, Et-Tirmidhi)
The minimum
for a Muslim man is
to always be covered (even when being given the last bath – ghusl –
before going to
be buried) from
the navel to the knee.
The more he is covered the better it is. In light of this it is
better for him to wear a t-shirt when going swimming to
avoid fitna (exposing
attractive parts of the body)."
*
According to my preliminary reading Tirmidhi was an Uzbek Sufi
scholar during the Abbasid Caliphate (9th c. B.C.E.) His Hadith is
considered one of the six canonical works of Sunni Islam. He
collected the recollections in what is now Iraq and also what was
Hijaz.
So, again, body shame is not just a female thing. It is both genders in Islam.
http://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/swimming-attire-for-men/
...........................................................................................
3. Islamweb.net
[the next six posts]
12/24/14
Q:
"My husband recently joined a club which provides all
facilities... Given that there is a lack and limited access to
physical activity while staying in today's apartment complexes and
also to teach our boys swimming which is Sunnah, we've
decided to use the club facilities. However, there is no separate
says for men but there are days in which women are allowed to use the
indoor pool and accompanying gym separately. So is it wrong for my
husband to swim in a pool that has women in it? I have to clarify
that it's a very big pool and usually, there are very few swimmers
(men and women) at the time we have chosen to attend."
I
know it sounds like a joke but I have no reason to believe that the
scholar isn't being serious.
A: There is no doubt that mixed
swimming pools where both men and women swim at the same time are a
great evil; a Muslim should
avoid it, let alone swim in it while both men and women are present.
It is inconceivable that the pool in the club is so big that one does
not see others in it, and does not see women. Even if it were assumed
that this was the case (a swimmer does not see another in the pool
because it’s too wide), the presence of your husband in such a
place when it is attended by women is a
door to temptation. Hence,
it is better for him to close that door because a Muslim is ordained
in Islam to protect himself and his family from temptation and its
causes. Allaah says (what means): {O
you who have believed, protect yourselves and your families from a
Fire whose fuel is people and stones, over which are [appointed]
angels, harsh and severe; they do not disobey Allaah in what He
commands them but do what they are commanded.}[Quran
66:6]
Indeed, there is nothing equal being
on the safe side when it comes to one's religion, and your husband
should not endanger it for the sake of swimming there. Indeed, he may
practice other sports instead of swimming.
Allaah Knows best."
Every
fatwa on this website ends with 'Allaah knows best', I left just this
one above intact.
4.
12/22/02
"Q:
What should woman wear in front of other women in swimming pool?
A:
Visiting swimming pool is a permissible matter if it is in the limits
of Sharia. Some of the limits of Sharia that should be considered are
as follows:
1.A woman should cover her Aurah; from navel to knee in front of Muslim women and whole body in front of non-Muslim women save her face and hands till wrists and what could be unveiled at work.
2.There
should be no mixing with opposite sex.
3.The
other women at that place, more likely, should be covering their
Awrah.
4.The
place should be safe in such a manner that men cannot see what is
inside.
5.Permission
of a husband is must for a married woman since his obedience is an
obligation and going to swimming pool is only a permitted act. So,
the obligation should be given the priority.
As for the Hadith your referred to, it is that the Prophet said:"If a woman puts off her clothes in a place other than her husband's house, she tears the veil between her and Allah" [hadith sources I omit here]. This Hadith means any place where a woman is not sure of being covered from men.
Therefore, many scholars have permitted women to enter the Sauna peculiar to women if they put the above conditions into effect."
Ok,
I am learning something here. The company of non-Muslim women is
taboo company to devout Muslim *women*! So, I will watch for *Muslim*
women only swims - no kuffars!
5.
12/18/03
"Q:
Swimming allowed for girls, even if they're covered from shoulders to
ankle?
A: Swimming
is lawful for females if the following conditions are met
1.
The Awrah is completely covered.
2.
There is no fear that alien men could see them.
3.
That their going to the swimming pool does not lead to neglecting the
rights of their husbands or children.
4.
That there is no mixing between males and females in the swimming
pool.
5.
That the swimming itself does not cause them any harm."
6.
6-9-05
"Q: I am worried about Muslim girls sport activities at schools. Especially swimming, which is obligation to know. For example, there are so many Muslim women unable to swim, because they do not know how and cause of this not able to save they drowning children in the water. So - I have a question now, does Islam tolerate this. In the schools are these swimming lectures obliged to follow, but most of the schools have mixed lectures. Most of the school are getting tired of excuses due to the religion and then the big demonstration exposes, that all Muslim girls shall change the schools, if they want to apply they religion... but the problem is, in Europe, where we as Muslims are more respected commonly, as in Arab countries, have no Islamic schools.
A:
As regards your saying that it is an obligation to learn to swim, if
you mean that the school obliges girls to attend these mixed swimming
classes, then it is not permissible for these girls to attend these
classes or to remain in these schools. They
have to move to another school where religious prohibitions are
respected. Otherwise, they have to remain at home as Allaah will hold
them accountable for not wearing Hijab and for exposing themselves,
and He will not hold them accountable for studies and swimming
classes.
Saying
that they have to attend these mixed classes because they need to
learn to swim in order to save their
children is not a valid excuse. Such
an excuse does not permit them to commit such a forbidden act.
So
we advise all the sisters to fear Allaah and to know that they will
stand before Him in a Day equal to 50,000 years. It is only on that
Day that you will know the evil consequences of learning to swim in
mixed swimming classes.
7.
9-1-05
"Q:
I want to ask a question about swimming, if I can swim in a swimming
pool were there is non-Muslim women are looking after us? I am not
showing my 'Awrah.A: Among these conditions is that a woman should
not see other women's 'Awrah (parts of the body that must be covered
in Islam - in case of women, it is all their body except their face
and hands) and we think that you will be seeing other women's
'Awrah. So in this case it is not permissible for you to go even if
you are covering your 'Awrah. Some
scholars are of the view that a non-Muslim woman can only see the
face and hands of a Muslim woman as all her body is an 'Awrah in
front of non-Muslim women except her face and hands. This
is the view of the Maaliki school; their evidence is the Saying of
Allaah (which means): {...and
not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their
fathers, or their husbands fathers, or their sons, or their
husbands’ sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or
their sisters' sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e., their sisters in
Islam),..}[Quran
24:31]. This
means that a Muslim woman should not reveal her beauty to a
non-Muslim woman, so you have to be cautious about this as a
non-Muslim woman could describe you to her husband and the like."
Let's
take this to its logical conclusion - a Muslim woman should not
even be in the house of a woman who has been to the city of a woman
who has been to a swimming pool where non-Muslim women swim.
Absurdity 101. Somebody needs a wake up call. And it's not Muslims,
it's non-Muslims who are probably not aware that such thinking and
behaviour goes on in Canada. I used to think that some Hindus and
Sikhs (and members of other and no religion, of course too) were ultra-conservative, but Islamic 'culture' is downright ridiculous.
8.
1/7/07
"Q: I live in
USA and i have 2 daughters 6 and 3. I started letting them have
swiming [sic] lessons for the last 2 months, their female instructor
is a non-muslim and she doesn't cover her Awra (she wears the
usuall [sic] swimming suits they have here). Usually when it's time
for the swimming classes only the kids and the instructors are in the
pool, a friend told me may be it's haram to let my kids go to
learn how to swim because of the instructors' swimming suit ? So is
it really haram or not? taking into consideration any where we
go here the non-muslims doesn't cover their Awra (in the mall,
work.....) So please tell me exactly what to do.
A: [After three Koranic verses] Therefore, if you send your daughters to this non-Muslim female instructor, you are exposing their creed and moral conduct to danger, as it is most likely that your daughters will be emotionally attached to her especially if she treats them well, as a result, they will love her. Consequently, they will try to imitate her in her behaviour and probably in her creed, and then it will be a catastrophe. It is only then that you will regret but it will be already too late. [two quote by Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim] In addition to this, there is no necessity in teaching your daughters how to swim."
......................................................................................
9.
Islamic Center of
Beverly Hills
SWIMMING AND ISLAM
According to this website while children should be taught to swim at an early age, it must be a private family event.
“Immediately after swimming lessons are finished the children should wear their regular long, loose, modest Islamic clothing.”
Swimming should not be at public beaches or swimming pools, for walking around in swimwear “gradually eliminates the child's shame, modesty (Sharm or Haya) or shyness.” The author(s) claim that, “it becomes natural for these children to walk with short pants and a bra.” He/she take a jab at Southern France for toplessness.
Children
must be taught shame and remorse. With bralessness, tank-tops and
bikinis, “shame goes out the
window.” Skimpy clothing leads to “premarital sex, sexually
transmitted diseases, teenage pregnancy and extra marital sex even
when they are married... then the divorce rate goes up to 90% and
traditional family values become meaningless.”
Among
the list of five things to do to teach and keep alive body-shame even
in small children are... “Avoid
going to the beach or public swimming or vacation cities with water
sports,” and “boys or girls should be ashamed to get undressed in
front of others, even their close family members.” The
cause and effect logic I find amazing, something out of 1920...
“Once your children are used to cover from age 1 to 13, then at the age 13, you do not have to fight them for wearing a short skirt, going out without bra and tank top clothing. Then you do not have to worry about dating, tattoos, dying their hair purple, premarital sex, teenage pregnancy, drug and alcohol addiction.”
http://www.icbh.org/topics/swimming_and_islam.htm
...........................................................................................
10.
Islamqa
Question: "I am a Muslim woman aged twenty-eight years, and I want to go swimming so that I can lose [sic] some weight. Can I go swimming in a swimming pool wearing clothes that cover me from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet? There are special clothes for Muslim women who want to swim and they cover the entire body, but they cling to the body when wet. What does Islam have to say about this? What if I wear a towel over these clothes and cover myself beforehand and straight after coming out of the pool? Is it permissible for me to swim in this case? Is it permissible for me to swim if there are some men present?"
Answer:
"Islam enjoins women to stay at home and not go out
unnecessarily, so as to preserve their chastity, maintain their
dignity and protect them from all evil.
Muslim women going out to public centres and swimming pools is something that is emphatically forbidden, because it involves a number of evils and negative consequences.
If these swimming pools are in public centres that are frequented by men and women, this is a great evil. Abu Dawood (4010) and at-Tirmidhi (2803), who classed the report as hasan, narrated from Abu Maleeh al-Hudhali that some women from Syria entered upon ‘Aa’ishah and she said: Perhaps you are the people whose women enter bathhouses? They said: Yes. She said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) say: “There is no woman who removes her clothes anywhere other than her house, but she has torn (the screen) that is between her and Allaah.” Classed as saheeh [authentic, reliable source] by al-Albaani in Saheeh at-Tirmidhi."
The author says that even bathing with other women is a sin And an engineer designing swimming pools that are not Islamic -- that is a sin too.
Further along we learn the ruling of Shaykh Ibn 'Uthaymeen (born in 1925, a respected Sunni scholar of the Salafi school of islamic jurisprudence in Saudi Arabia -- yes, I looked him up)...
"My advice to my brothers is not to let their women go to swimming pools and sports clubs because the Prophet.. encouraged women to stay at home. Moreover, if a woman becomes accustomed to that she will become very attached to it because she is subject to her emotions, and in that case she will become distracted from her religious or worldly duties and she will always be talking about these activities in gatherings. And if the woman does such things that will be a cause of her losing sense of shame and modesty, and if a woman loses her sense of shame and modesty do not ask about the evil consequences..."
I
learned a lot from this article including the context,
that hamaams (bathhouses)
at the time of the hadiths being collected were not both genders,
therefore the Islamic rulings concern women mixing semi-dressed
with fellow women!
BTW,
'hasan' means not as well-established as 'shahih' (literally 'good').
There are three categories of individual hadiths: good, strong and
weak with respective reliability. For the first two centuries of
Islam (after hadiths started to be collected presumably), there was
no middle category. Or so I read. I am certainly no expert.
What
amazes me how subjugated women (and even men) are to religious
authorities in Islam. This is like something out of Europe of the
Middle Ages. Why aren't Muslims rebelling? Why is there no social and
scientific enlightenment like 16th century
Europe? Clearly, Islam is a mindset totally alien to modern western
values.
https://islamqa.info/en/159926
............................................................
Eleven Islamic blog posts on swimming
I have changed original bolding which may be different in web source. Bolding here is mine. I have edited out the Islamic statements of praise to God and Mohammed. Sorry for some inconsistencies of text. Despite numerous times changing font size and colour, this blog service is not updating those changes. It may have something to do with the websites copied and pasted which were a bit troublesome
1.
12/1/11
Islamic Workplace
Enabling Muslims and Non-Muslims To Work More Effectively and Harmoniously Together
Follow the Sunna of the Prophets: How exercise benefits the brain and overall performance
By Rafik Beekun
"In a hadith narrated from Hazrat Ibn Umar in which our beloved Prophet said ”Teach your children swimming, archery and horse riding”. In Sahih Muslim, the Prophet said, “Practice archery and horseback riding.” The Prophet said “Any action without the remembrance of Allah is either a diversion or heedlessness except four acts: walking from target to target (during archery practice), training a horse, . . . , and learning to swim.” (Reported by al Tabarani on good authority) Finally, the Prophet (s) also allowed spear practice in the masjid, and also acted as a barrier for his wife Aisha (rah) when she was watching the Abyssinians practice sports."
If I understand correctly the missing section is 'playing with one's family', according to a later quote from al tabari in the same article.
This reminds me of the prohibition in the early days of ISKCON (Hare Krishnas) against 'frivolous activity'
Aisha was Mohammed's third wife.
https://theislamicworkplace.com/2011/12/01/follow-the-sunna-of-the-prophet-s-how-exercise-benefits-the-brain-and-overall-performance/
...........................................................................................
2.
Al-Islam.org
Men and unisex swimming
https://www.al-islam.org/hijab-muslim-womens-dress-islamic-or-cultural-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/common-questions-about-hijab-and
Lead!
Imam Ali Foundation [Shia?]
A Code of Practice For Muslims in the West
by Ayatullah Sayyid Ali Hussaini Sistani
I have downloaded this 148-page document and will study it in depth at another time. It shows how Muslims are less likely to integrate than members of other religions, and in my assessment even antagonistic.
https://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-sistani
........................................................................................................
3. EShayk
A girl, apparently from Turkish controlled Northern Cyprus, writes...
"In summer I go swimming almost every day in rivers, lakes or the ocean. I usually wear long (knee-length) swim trunks, but recently bought a basketball jersey to wear in the water as well. Is this necessary? If not in public or if no women are present, is this still necessary?"
Imam Senad Agic (originally from Bosnia) from the American Islamic Center in Chicago replies...
............................................................................................
4. Islamweb.net
12/24/14
5.
A: Visiting swimming pool is a permissible matter if it is in the limits of Sharia. Some of the limits of Sharia that should be considered are as follows:
1.A woman should cover her Aurah; from navel to knee in front of Muslim women and whole body in front of non-Muslim women save her face and hands till wrists and what could be unveiled at work.
2.There should be no mixing with opposite sex.
3.The other women at that place, more likely, should be covering their Awrah.
4.The place should be safe in such a manner that men cannot see what is inside.
5.Permission of a husband is must for a married woman since his obedience is an obligation and going to swimming pool is only a permitted act. So, the obligation should be given the priority.
As for the Hadith your referred to, it is that the Prophet said:"If a woman puts off her clothes in a place other than her husband's house, she tears the veil between her and Allah" [hadith sources I omit here]. This Hadith means any place where a woman is not sure of being covered from men.
Therefore, many scholars have permitted women to enter the Sauna peculiar to women if they put the above conditions into effect."
6.
12/18/03
7.
6-9-05
"Q: I am worried about Muslim girls sport activities at schools. Especially swimming, which is obligation to know. For example, there are so many Muslim women unable to swim, because they do not know how and cause of this not able to save they drowning children in the water. So - I have a question now, does Islam tolerate this. In the schools are these swimming lectures obliged to follow, but most of the schools have mixed lectures. Most of the school are getting tired of excuses due to the religion and then the big demonstration exposes, that all Muslim girls shall change the schools, if they want to apply they religion... but the problem is, in Europe, where we as Muslims are more respected commonly, as in Arab countries, have no Islamic schools.
1.
12/1/11
Islamic Workplace
Enabling Muslims and Non-Muslims To Work More Effectively and Harmoniously Together
Follow the Sunna of the Prophets: How exercise benefits the brain and overall performance
By Rafik Beekun
"In a hadith narrated from Hazrat Ibn Umar in which our beloved Prophet said ”Teach your children swimming, archery and horse riding”. In Sahih Muslim, the Prophet said, “Practice archery and horseback riding.” The Prophet said “Any action without the remembrance of Allah is either a diversion or heedlessness except four acts: walking from target to target (during archery practice), training a horse, . . . , and learning to swim.” (Reported by al Tabarani on good authority) Finally, the Prophet (s) also allowed spear practice in the masjid, and also acted as a barrier for his wife Aisha (rah) when she was watching the Abyssinians practice sports."
If I understand correctly the missing section is 'playing with one's family', according to a later quote from al tabari in the same article.
This reminds me of the prohibition in the early days of ISKCON (Hare Krishnas) against 'frivolous activity'
Aisha was Mohammed's third wife.
https://theislamicworkplace.com/2011/12/01/follow-the-sunna-of-the-prophet-s-how-exercise-benefits-the-brain-and-overall-performance/
...........................................................................................
2.
Al-Islam.org
Men and unisex swimming
"Q: Is it permissible for a Muslim man to go to unisex swimming pools and other similar places where people go about half-naked?
A: It is not permissible for a Muslim man to go to unisex swimming pools and other similar places if it entails a haram act. Based on obligatory precaution, according to Ayatullah Sistani, he must refrain from going to such places even if it does not entail a haram act."
So, based on this fatwa (pronouncement of an interpretation of Islamic law) after women only swims we should expect to see Muslim MEN only swims too. I give it ten years in Canada if Trudeau gets his way. This could be presented as 'men's modest swimwear only' events. Nothing Muslim about it of course...
https://www.al-islam.org/hijab-muslim-womens-dress-islamic-or-cultural-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/common-questions-about-hijab-and
Lead!
Imam Ali Foundation [Shia?]
A Code of Practice For Muslims in the West
by Ayatullah Sayyid Ali Hussaini Sistani
I have downloaded this 148-page document and will study it in depth at another time. It shows how Muslims are less likely to integrate than members of other religions, and in my assessment even antagonistic.
https://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-sistani
........................................................................................................
3. EShayk
A girl, apparently from Turkish controlled Northern Cyprus, writes...
"In summer I go swimming almost every day in rivers, lakes or the ocean. I usually wear long (knee-length) swim trunks, but recently bought a basketball jersey to wear in the water as well. Is this necessary? If not in public or if no women are present, is this still necessary?"
Imam Senad Agic (originally from Bosnia) from the American Islamic Center in Chicago replies...
"The Messenger of Allah (saws) said: Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day must not enter the public bath without a lower garment, and whoever believes in Allah and the last Day must not let his wife go to the public bath.(En-Nasa’i, Et-Tirmidhi)
The minimum for a Muslim man is to always be covered (even when being given the last bath – ghusl – before going to be buried) from the navel to the knee. The more he is covered the better it is. In light of this it is better for him to wear a t-shirt when going swimming to avoid fitna (exposing attractive parts of the body)."
* According to my preliminary reading Tirmidhi was an Uzbek Sufi scholar during the Abbasid Caliphate (9th c. B.C.E.) His Hadith is considered one of the six canonical works of Sunni Islam. He collected the recollections in what is now Iraq and also what was Hijaz.
So, again, body shame is not just a female thing. It is both genders in Islam.
http://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/swimming-attire-for-men/............................................................................................
4. Islamweb.net
12/24/14
Q: "My husband recently joined a club which provides all facilities... Given that there is a lack and limited access to physical activity while staying in today's apartment complexes and also to teach our boys swimming which is Sunnah, we've decided to use the club facilities. However, there is no separate says for men but there are days in which women are allowed to use the indoor pool and accompanying gym separately. So is it wrong for my husband to swim in a pool that has women in it? I have to clarify that it's a very big pool and usually, there are very few swimmers (men and women) at the time we have chosen to attend."
I know it sounds like a joke but I have no reason to believe that the scholar isn't being serious.
A: There
is no doubt that mixed swimming pools where both men and women swim
at the same time are a great evil; a Muslim should avoid it, let
alone swim in it while both men and women are present.
It
is inconceivable that the pool in the club is so big that one does
not see others in it, and does not see women. Even if it were assumed
that this was the case (a swimmer does not see another in the pool
because it’s too wide), the presence of your husband in such a
place when it is attended by women is a door to temptation. Hence, it
is better for him to close that door because a Muslim is ordained in
Islam to protect himself and his family from temptation and its
causes. Allaah says (what means): {O
you who have believed, protect yourselves and your families from a
Fire whose fuel is people and stones, over which are [appointed]
angels, harsh and severe; they do not disobey Allaah in what He
commands them but do what they are commanded.}[Quran
66:6]
Indeed,
there is nothing equal being on the safe side when it comes to one's
religion, and your husband should not endanger it for the sake of
swimming there. Indeed, he may practice other sports instead of
swimming.
Allaah Knows best."
Every fatwa on this website ends with 'Allaah knows best', I left the one above intact.
5.
12/22/02
"Q: What
should woman wear in front of other women in swimming pool?
A: Visiting swimming pool is a permissible matter if it is in the limits of Sharia. Some of the limits of Sharia that should be considered are as follows:
1.A woman should cover her Aurah; from navel to knee in front of Muslim women and whole body in front of non-Muslim women save her face and hands till wrists and what could be unveiled at work.
2.There should be no mixing with opposite sex.
3.The other women at that place, more likely, should be covering their Awrah.
4.The place should be safe in such a manner that men cannot see what is inside.
5.Permission of a husband is must for a married woman since his obedience is an obligation and going to swimming pool is only a permitted act. So, the obligation should be given the priority.
As for the Hadith your referred to, it is that the Prophet said:"If a woman puts off her clothes in a place other than her husband's house, she tears the veil between her and Allah" [hadith sources I omit here]. This Hadith means any place where a woman is not sure of being covered from men.
Therefore, many scholars have permitted women to enter the Sauna peculiar to women if they put the above conditions into effect."
Ok, I am learning something here. The company of non-Muslim women is taboo company to devout Muslim *women*! So, I will watch for *Muslim* women only swims - no kuffars!
6.
12/18/03
"Q: Swimming allowed for girls, even if they're covered from shoulders to
ankle?
A:
Swimming
is lawful for females if the following conditions are met
1. The
Awrah is completely covered.
2. There
is no fear that alien men could see them.
3. That
their going to the swimming pool does not lead to neglecting the
rights of their husbands or children.
4. That
there is no mixing between males and females in the swimming pool.
5. That
the swimming itself does not cause them any harm."
7.
6-9-05
"Q: I am worried about Muslim girls sport activities at schools. Especially swimming, which is obligation to know. For example, there are so many Muslim women unable to swim, because they do not know how and cause of this not able to save they drowning children in the water. So - I have a question now, does Islam tolerate this. In the schools are these swimming lectures obliged to follow, but most of the schools have mixed lectures. Most of the school are getting tired of excuses due to the religion and then the big demonstration exposes, that all Muslim girls shall change the schools, if they want to apply they religion... but the problem is, in Europe, where we as Muslims are more respected commonly, as in Arab countries, have no Islamic schools.
A: As regards your saying that it is an obligation to learn to swim, if you mean that the school obliges girls to attend these mixed swimming classes, then it is not permissible for these girls to attend these classes or to remain in these schools. They have to move to another school where religious prohibitions are respected. Otherwise, they have to remain at home as Allaah will hold them accountable for not wearing Hijab and for exposing themselves, and He will not hold them accountable for studies and swimming classes.
Saying that they have to attend these mixed classes because they need to learn to swim in order to save their children is not a valid excuse. Such an excuse does not permit them to commit such a forbidden act.
So we advise all the sisters to fear Allaah and to know that they will stand before Him in a Day equal to 50,000 years. It is only on that Day that you will know the evil consequences of learning to swim in mixed swimming classes."
8.
9-1-05
"Q:
I
want to ask a question about swimming, if I can swim in a swimming
pool were there is non-Muslim women are looking after us? I am not
showing my 'Awrah.
A:
Among these conditions is that a woman should not see other women's
'Awrah (parts of the body that must be covered in Islam - in case of
women, it is all their body except their face and hands) and we think
that you will be seeing other women's 'Awrah. So in this case it is
not permissible for you to go even if you are covering your 'Awrah.
Some
scholars are of the view that a non-Muslim woman can only see the
face and hands of a Muslim woman as all her body is an 'Awrah in
front of non-Muslim women except her face and hands. This
is the view of the Maaliki school; their evidence is the Saying of
Allaah (which means): {...and
not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their
fathers, or their husbands fathers, or their sons, or their husbands’
sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters'
sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e., their sisters in
Islam),..}[Quran
24:31]. This
means that a Muslim woman should not reveal her beauty to a
non-Muslim woman, so you have to be cautious about this as a
non-Muslim woman could describe you to her husband and the like."
Let's take this to its logical conclusion - a Muslim woman should not even be in the house of a woman who has been to the city of a woman who has been to a swimming pool where non-Muslim women swim. Absurdity 101. Somebody needs a wake up call. And it's not Muslims, it's non-Muslims who are probably not aware that such thinking and behaviour goes on in Canada. I used to think that some Hindus and Sikhs were ultra-conservative, but Islam is downright ridiculous.
9.
1/7/07
"Q: I
live in USA
and i have 2 daughters 6 and 3. I started letting them have swiming
[sic] lessons for the last 2 months, their female instructor is a
non-muslim and she doesn't cover her Awra
(she wears the usuall [sic] swimming suits they have here). Usually
when it's time for the swimming classes only the kids and the
instructors are in the pool, a friend told me may be it's haram
to let my kids go to learn how to swim because of the instructors'
swimming suit ? So is it really haram
or not? taking into consideration any where we go here the
non-muslims doesn't cover their Awra
(in the mall, work.....) So please tell me exactly what to do.
A:
[After
three Koranic verses] Therefore,
if you send your daughters to this non-Muslim female instructor, you
are exposing their creed and moral conduct to danger, as it
is most likely that your daughters will be emotionally attached to
her especially if she treats them well, as a result, they will love
her. Consequently, they will try to imitate her in her behaviour and
probably in her creed, and then it will be a catastrophe.
It is only then that you will regret but it will be already too late.
[two quote by Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim] In addition to this,
there is no necessity in teaching your daughters how to swim."
......................................................................................
10.
Islamic Center of Beverly Hills
SWIMMING AND ISLAM
According
to this website while children should be taught to swim at an early
age, it must be a private family event.
So we advise all the sisters to fear Allaah and to know that they will stand before Him in a Day equal to 50,000 years. It is only on that Day that you will know the evil consequences of learning to swim in mixed swimming classes."
8.
9-1-05
"Q:
I
want to ask a question about swimming, if I can swim in a swimming
pool were there is non-Muslim women are looking after us? I am not
showing my 'Awrah.
A:
Among these conditions is that a woman should not see other women's
'Awrah (parts of the body that must be covered in Islam - in case of
women, it is all their body except their face and hands) and we think
that you will be seeing other women's 'Awrah. So in this case it is
not permissible for you to go even if you are covering your 'Awrah.
Some
scholars are of the view that a non-Muslim woman can only see the
face and hands of a Muslim woman as all her body is an 'Awrah in
front of non-Muslim women except her face and hands. This
is the view of the Maaliki school; their evidence is the Saying of
Allaah (which means): {...and
not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their
fathers, or their husbands fathers, or their sons, or their husbands’
sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters'
sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e., their sisters in
Islam),..}[Quran
24:31]. This
means that a Muslim woman should not reveal her beauty to a
non-Muslim woman, so you have to be cautious about this as a
non-Muslim woman could describe you to her husband and the like."
Let's take this to its logical conclusion - a Muslim woman should not even be in the house of a woman who has been to the city of a woman who has been to a swimming pool where non-Muslim women swim. Absurdity 101. Somebody needs a wake up call. And it's not Muslims, it's non-Muslims who are probably not aware that such thinking and behaviour goes on in Canada. I used to think that some Hindus and Sikhs were ultra-conservative, but Islam is downright ridiculous.
9.
1/7/07
"Q: I live in USA and i have 2 daughters 6 and 3. I started letting them have swiming [sic] lessons for the last 2 months, their female instructor is a non-muslim and she doesn't cover her Awra (she wears the usuall [sic] swimming suits they have here). Usually when it's time for the swimming classes only the kids and the instructors are in the pool, a friend told me may be it's haram to let my kids go to learn how to swim because of the instructors' swimming suit ? So is it really haram or not? taking into consideration any where we go here the non-muslims doesn't cover their Awra (in the mall, work.....) So please tell me exactly what to do.
A:
[After
three Koranic verses] Therefore,
if you send your daughters to this non-Muslim female instructor, you
are exposing their creed and moral conduct to danger, as it
is most likely that your daughters will be emotionally attached to
her especially if she treats them well, as a result, they will love
her. Consequently, they will try to imitate her in her behaviour and
probably in her creed, and then it will be a catastrophe.
It is only then that you will regret but it will be already too late.
[two quote by Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim] In addition to this,
there is no necessity in teaching your daughters how to swim."
......................................................................................
10.
Islamic Center of Beverly Hills
SWIMMING AND ISLAM
According
to this website while children should be taught to swim at an early
age, it must be a private family event.
“Immediately after swimming lessons are finished the children should wear their regular long, loose, modest Islamic clothing.”
Swimming
should not be at public beaches or swimming pools, for walking around
in swimwear “gradually
eliminates the child's shame, modesty (Sharm
or Haya)
or shyness.” The author(s) claim that, “it becomes natural for
these children to walk with short pants and a bra.” He/she take a
jab at Southern France for toplessness.
Children
must be taught shame and remorse. With bralessness, tank-tops and
bikinis, “shame goes out the window.” Skimpy clothing leads to
“premarital sex, sexually transmitted diseases, teenage pregnancy
and extra marital sex even when they are married... then the divorce
rate goes up to 90% and traditional family values become
meaningless.”
Among
the list of five things to do to teach and keep alive body-shame even
in small children are... “Avoid going to the beach or public
swimming or vacation cities with water sports,” and “boys or
girls should be ashamed to get undressed in front of others, even
their close family members.” The cause and effect logic I find
amazing, something out of 1920...
Swimming
should not be at public beaches or swimming pools, for walking around
in swimwear “gradually
eliminates the child's shame, modesty (Sharm
or Haya)
or shyness.” The author(s) claim that, “it becomes natural for
these children to walk with short pants and a bra.” He/she take a
jab at Southern France for toplessness.
Children must be taught shame and remorse. With bralessness, tank-tops and bikinis, “shame goes out the window.” Skimpy clothing leads to “premarital sex, sexually transmitted diseases, teenage pregnancy and extra marital sex even when they are married... then the divorce rate goes up to 90% and traditional family values become meaningless.”
Among the list of five things to do to teach and keep alive body-shame even in small children are... “Avoid going to the beach or public swimming or vacation cities with water sports,” and “boys or girls should be ashamed to get undressed in front of others, even their close family members.” The cause and effect logic I find amazing, something out of 1920...
Children must be taught shame and remorse. With bralessness, tank-tops and bikinis, “shame goes out the window.” Skimpy clothing leads to “premarital sex, sexually transmitted diseases, teenage pregnancy and extra marital sex even when they are married... then the divorce rate goes up to 90% and traditional family values become meaningless.”
Among the list of five things to do to teach and keep alive body-shame even in small children are... “Avoid going to the beach or public swimming or vacation cities with water sports,” and “boys or girls should be ashamed to get undressed in front of others, even their close family members.” The cause and effect logic I find amazing, something out of 1920...
“Once your children are used to cover from age 1 to 13, then at the age 13, you do not have to fight them for wearing a short skirt, going out without bra and tank top clothing. Then you do not have to worry about dating, tattoos, dying their hair purple, premarital sex, teenage pregnancy, drug and alcohol addiction.”
http://www.icbh.org/topics/swimming_and_islam.htm
...........................................................................................
11.
Islamqa
Question: "I am a Muslim woman aged twenty-eight years, and I want to go
swimming so that I can lose [sic] some weight. Can I go swimming in a
swimming pool wearing clothes that cover me from the top of my head
to the bottom of my feet? There are special clothes for Muslim women
who want to swim and they cover the entire body, but they cling to
the body when wet. What does Islam have to say about this? What if I
wear a towel over these clothes and cover myself beforehand and
straight after coming out of the pool? Is it permissible for me to
swim in this case? Is it permissible for me to swim if there are some
men present?"
Answer: "Islam enjoins women to stay at home and not go out unnecessarily,
so as to preserve their chastity, maintain their dignity and protect
them from all evil.
Muslim
women going out to public centres and swimming pools is something
that is emphatically forbidden, because it involves a number of
evils and negative consequences.
If
these swimming pools are in public centres that are frequented by men
and women, this is a great evil. Abu Dawood (4010) and
at-Tirmidhi (2803), who classed the report as hasan, narrated
from Abu Maleeh al-Hudhali that some women from Syria entered upon
‘Aa’ishah and she said: Perhaps you are the people whose women
enter bathhouses? They said: Yes. She said: I heard the Messenger of
Allaah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) say: “There is
no woman who removes her clothes anywhere other than her house, but
she has torn (the screen) that is between her and Allaah.” Classed
as saheeh [authentic, reliable source] by al-Albaani in Saheeh
at-Tirmidhi."
The author says that even bathing with other women is a sin And an engineer designing swimming pools that are not Islamic -- that is a sin too.
Further along we learn the ruling of Shaykh Ibn 'Uthaymeen (born in 1925, a respected Sunni scholar of the Salafi school of islamic jurisprudence in Saudi Arabia -- yes, I looked him up)...
"My advice to my brothers is not to let their women go to swimming pools and sports clubs because the Prophet.. encouraged women to stay at home. Moreover, if a woman becomes accustomed to that she will become very attached to it because she is subject to her emotions, and in that case she will become distracted from her religious or worldly duties and she will always be talking about these activities in gatherings. And if the woman does such things that will be a cause of her losing sense of shame and modesty, and if a woman loses her sense of shame and modesty do not ask about the evil consequences..."
I learned a lot from this article including the context, that hamaams (bathhouses) at the time of the hadiths being collected were not both genders, therefore the Islamic rulings concern women mixing semi-dressed with fellow women!
BTW, 'hasan' means not as well-established as 'shahih' (literally 'good'). There are three categories of individual hadiths: good, strong and weak with respective reliability. For the first two centuries of Islam (after hadiths started to be collected presumably), there was no middle category. Or so I read. I am certainly no expert.
What amazes me how subjugated women (and even men) are to religious authorities in Islam. This is like something out of Europe of the Middle Ages. Why aren't Muslims rebelling? Why is there no social and scientific enlightenment like 16th century Europe? Clearly, Islam is a mindset totally alien to modern western values.
https://islamqa.info/en/159926
............................................................
http://www.icbh.org/topics/swimming_and_islam.htm
...........................................................................................
11.
Islamqa
Islamqa
Question: "I am a Muslim woman aged twenty-eight years, and I want to go
swimming so that I can lose [sic] some weight. Can I go swimming in a
swimming pool wearing clothes that cover me from the top of my head
to the bottom of my feet? There are special clothes for Muslim women
who want to swim and they cover the entire body, but they cling to
the body when wet. What does Islam have to say about this? What if I
wear a towel over these clothes and cover myself beforehand and
straight after coming out of the pool? Is it permissible for me to
swim in this case? Is it permissible for me to swim if there are some
men present?"
Answer: "Islam enjoins women to stay at home and not go out unnecessarily, so as to preserve their chastity, maintain their dignity and protect them from all evil.
Muslim
women going out to public centres and swimming pools is something
that is emphatically forbidden, because it involves a number of
evils and negative consequences.
If
these swimming pools are in public centres that are frequented by men
and women, this is a great evil. Abu Dawood (4010) and
at-Tirmidhi (2803), who classed the report as hasan, narrated
from Abu Maleeh al-Hudhali that some women from Syria entered upon
‘Aa’ishah and she said: Perhaps you are the people whose women
enter bathhouses? They said: Yes. She said: I heard the Messenger of
Allaah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) say: “There is
no woman who removes her clothes anywhere other than her house, but
she has torn (the screen) that is between her and Allaah.” Classed
as saheeh [authentic, reliable source] by al-Albaani in Saheeh
at-Tirmidhi."
The author says that even bathing with other women is a sin And an engineer designing swimming pools that are not Islamic -- that is a sin too.
Further along we learn the ruling of Shaykh Ibn 'Uthaymeen (born in 1925, a respected Sunni scholar of the Salafi school of islamic jurisprudence in Saudi Arabia -- yes, I looked him up)...
"My advice to my brothers is not to let their women go to swimming pools and sports clubs because the Prophet.. encouraged women to stay at home. Moreover, if a woman becomes accustomed to that she will become very attached to it because she is subject to her emotions, and in that case she will become distracted from her religious or worldly duties and she will always be talking about these activities in gatherings. And if the woman does such things that will be a cause of her losing sense of shame and modesty, and if a woman loses her sense of shame and modesty do not ask about the evil consequences..."
I learned a lot from this article including the context, that hamaams (bathhouses) at the time of the hadiths being collected were not both genders, therefore the Islamic rulings concern women mixing semi-dressed with fellow women!
BTW, 'hasan' means not as well-established as 'shahih' (literally 'good'). There are three categories of individual hadiths: good, strong and weak with respective reliability. For the first two centuries of Islam (after hadiths started to be collected presumably), there was no middle category. Or so I read. I am certainly no expert.
What amazes me how subjugated women (and even men) are to religious authorities in Islam. This is like something out of Europe of the Middle Ages. Why aren't Muslims rebelling? Why is there no social and scientific enlightenment like 16th century Europe? Clearly, Islam is a mindset totally alien to modern western values.
https://islamqa.info/en/159926
............................................................
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